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Chris Briggs

Software engineer whose passionate about IoT, Dev-Ops, Security, UWP & Xamarin.

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Wondering how Gamification can improve user engagement? Trying to wrap your head around the difference between shallow and deep Gamification? Or just want to know common pitfalls to avoid. Then this is the interview for you.

I sit down and discuss all things Gamification with Zac Fitz-Walter, founder of Gamification Weekly and associate lecturer at the Games Research and Interaction Design (GRID) Lab, in the Science and Engineering Faculty, Queensland University of Technology (QUT).

Be sure to check out Gamification Weekly, an awesome weekly email, containing a roundup of the latest Gamification news, research, comics and more!

Feel free to tweet me comments, feedback or questions to @ChrisBriggsy.


CHRIS BRIGGS: Hi everyone. Chris Briggs here from ssw TV. And today I am here with Gamification expert. How are you doing today Zac?

ZAC FITZ-WALTER: Doing great Chris, how are you doing?

CHRIS BRIGGS: Good. It’s a tad cold for Brisbane right down here in Sydney.

ZAC FITZ-WALTER: Yeah, is it?

CHRIS BRIGGS: Oh, yes. So. For the viewers at home, can you tell us what is Gamification?

ZAC FITZ-WALTER: Sure, sure. So basically Gamification is about framing everyday activities like video games I guess or like games to make them more enjoyable. I guess if we have a look you know back at history we’ve used fun and games to motivate and engage people for a very long time now. However, more recently designers I guess have begun to directly translate elements from video games to non – game context in order to try and create more motivated and engaging experiences. So, examples of this could be if you have an Apple watch for example or a Fit bit when you’re using that to tract your fitness you often receive points and achievements for when you reach certain test or milestones. I think this is partly because video games first of all had become mainstream in terms of their popularity. And also because mobile technology in a sense has become much more cheaper and accessible. And because of that we’re able to track more I guess about what we do every day. And then it’s quite easy to add game to track or to reward us for undertaking particular tasks. So, I guess the term Gamification has been coined to describe this design strategy. Taking game elements and applying to non – game contexts. And in the last five years a huge industry kind of has grown around providing Gamification services. There’s conference that are being run every year and there are more and more people practicing Gamification design.

CHRIS BRIGGS: So what application first made Gamification really work?

ZAC FITZ-WALTER: What application made Gamification first really were – that was a good question. I guess if we go back a little bit and look at the history of Gamification. I guess you know as I said, before the concept behind it isn’t you would be using games to motivate people for a long time now. But the term Gamification is quite new and there’s – apparently it has been first used I guess back in almost 2002. But the first documented use of the term Gamification was in 2008 used in a blog post. And it was the year after that that Four Square was released. And not Four Square is – well it’s a service a kind of a social network location sharing service. So you could use Four Square to check in to a location such as a cafe or a park and then you could share this location with your friends to let them know where you were. Now what was interesting about Four Square were there had been other apps out there like this before but Four Square added game moments to their particular system. So, receive points I guess for checking in to locations. And then the more places you check into you got more points and you could compare how many points you have with your other friends. And you also unlock things like badges when you check into places such as being at a bar for example. One other interesting – or other interesting game element they introduced was the concept of mayorships. So if you were the person who checked in the most to a particular location you would then become the kind of the virtual mayor of that location. And Four Square was incredibly popular. Now, I can’t remember the stats exactly but there were million s of users of Four Square. And a lot of people I guessed looked at Four Square and they looked at how they had included these game elements and they were like, “Well, these game elements seem pretty good. We could probably use similar strategies to try and engage people and motivate people to use our service as well. And I guess this kind of Gamification blueprint became known which is these badges, leader boards, and points. And we see these blueprint I guess of Gamification being applied to many other different areas as well with varying degrees of success. So I guess Four Square is kind of one of the first kind of apps that really stood on the popularity of Gamification. In about 2011 the term became really popular. It was able to on this hype cycle. 2012, became a little dubious about Gamification. Well it’s interesting as Gardner then released another post that a large number of games like applications I think It’s about 80% would actually fail by 2014.

CHRIS BRIGGS: So do you think we have seen that trend materialised?

ZAC FITZ-WALTER: Oh, that’s a good point. A good question. It’s interesting. I think we’ve seen a maturing of Gamification. So people have - you know there was a – people kind of looked at it a little bit as a bit of a magic bullet. It’s like if we add game elements to our website or to our apps and we get increased engagement potentially. But I think we’re beginning to understand that it’s not that just easy and that it’s much more than just adding badges, leader boards, and points and so, Gamification has began to mature a little bit. Well, quite a bit actually over the last few years. And –

CHRIS BRIGGS: As you gone through this process of Gamification maturing, what have we discovered is the really the driving force that makes Gamification work so well?

ZAC FITZ-WALTER: Yeah, okay so I guess worthwhile noting that not all Gamifications will work and you know it’s kind of it’s not a magic bullet just add badges pr leader board and points to website, bam engagement skyrockets. It really depends on what you’re trying to do with it. So most Gamification will be added to encourage some kind of behaviour change, that’s generally what it’s used for. Whether this is engaging people to use an app or at least the software more or encouraging a particular behaviour true enough such as encouraging people to take more steps during the day. I think it’s important to look at the roots of Gamification though when we’re looking or considering about what makes Gamification work. And of course that is video games, so games in general. So, it’s goof to look at Gamification in terms of you know why games are so popular and why games are so engaging . So for example, have you played World of Warcraft, Cris?

CHRIS BRIGGS: Yes, I have lost many hours on it.

ZAC FITZ-WALTER: Have you, yeah. So for those of you –for those people missing and don’t know what the World of Warcraft is, if you’re living under a rock maybe it’s what’s known as a MMORPG. It’s a massively multiplayer on line role-playing game. Your character which one did you choose orc, human, gnome.

CHRIS BRIGGS: Blood elf Paladin, from day one played the same character.

ZAC FITZ-WALTER: Blood elf Paladin Fantastic. So yeah, you picked that character right and then you head off on quests while around you other people are playing as well it’s incredibly engaging. So much time do you think we have collectively spent the world in World of Warcraft?

CHRIS BRIGGS: I looked it up the other day.


CHRIS BRIGGS: It was a command /time and it tells you how many hours, minutes, days, weeks, months.

ZAC FITZ-WALTER: That you personally have spent.

CHRIS BRIGGS: Yeah, I personally have put on that I have put on that character with my little brother. And we’re starting to pack up towards a week.

ZAC FITZ-WALTER: Towards a week so like an entire week. If that’s 24 hours times 7.

CHRIS BRIGGS: And yeah, nearly 140 odd hours.

ZAC FITZ-WALTER: That’s impressive for a beginner right if you consider some other video games out there you know most people they finish a game in say eight hours. It depends really on what the game is. So to spend that much time individually in World of Warcraft is quite significant. It was interesting there was I think one analyst calculated that as of 2012 we have spend collectively 50 billion hours of game time in World of Warcraft. So that adds up to about six million - 5.9 million years. And that’s just one game right? And this is the game that isn’t free so you have to pay a monthly subscription to play. So we have people out there actively paying to play this game for many, many hours. And as you can imagine these figures suggest that these games such as World of Warcraft can be pretty engaging. And so I guess the idea behind Gamification if we want to look up making it work it’s really looking at how these games or games similar to this are these really engaging games create such an engaging experience. And then how we can kind of translate this into other areas, non – game context like work or exercise to make it more interesting and more engaged. But yeah, so in that sense to make Gamification wok we really have to look at what makes games engaging. Sorry – what makes games engaging. So yeah, I think looking at games, looking why they’re intrinsically motivated to play because they have a clear goal, they have a challenge, which is seated to the player. They have good feedback or a good sense of progress. Things like this can be used to have to be potentially be translated to other areas to try to make more engaging -

CHRIS BRIGGS: Now, if you don’t mind me asking you , I have now publicly revealed my world at time. How many hours have you spent in the game?

ZAC FITZ-WALTER: Oh, well so – I am more of a – I played my PC games I only spent believe it or not about 15 hours in World of Warcraft. 10 – 15 hours. So I started playing it and I realised I couldn’t spend a lot of time playing this game. And so I maybe active active to vision 2. I played for a bit, tried it out, and then moved on to other games because there are so many games out there. And especially you know when you’re looking at game design in particular you want to try and play as many games as possible. So, I would love to spend – I would love to take some time off and play because it’s incredible, it’s still popular even though it’s been out for – when did it come out, 200?

CHRIS BRIGGS: It’s over 10 years old now.

ZAC FITZ-WALTER: Yeah, at least 10 years old now, right? And it’s still incredibly popular. I mean a lot has changed since then. They’ve added a lot of content to it and a few things. But yeah, it’s pretty exciting. So yeah, not as many hours as I’d like to.

CHRIS BRIGGS: So, this is a very interesting idea we just touched on. So for example, SSW has a product called Sugar Learning, which is designed to use game elements to make induction process really engaging. And even though it’s a good product I haven’t’ heard of anyone wanting to spend 150 hours to do it. So are there different kinds of Gamification?

ZAC FITZ-WALTER: Yes. I guess well as we’re talking about this we’re talking about kind of a shallow versus deep Gamification, right? And it’s metaphor which personally I am going to use that often but it’s a very good way of talking about or distinguishing between I guess the simple application things like points, badges, and leader boards versus more deep game like I guess designs which have really looked at the game for processes and theories behind it. So it’s quite easy to add points, badges, and leader boards to a website in order to reward people for completing particular activities like visiting pages, watching videos, leaving a comment etcetera. And I guess you could consider this to be shallow Gamification to a certain extent. Kind of a solution that doesn’t really consider first of all what the underlying problem is. It’s more adding Gamification to the statement. So maybe you’ve heard that it’s going somewhere else for example Four Square and you want to see kind of is this blueprint works for you. So don’t get me wrong, this can work in some cases. When you have users who are completely a motivated to begin with and but the novelty of it can wear thin. And what we’re doing is we’re really assuming that users value these badges and points for example when actual in fact who knows if they are. So then in terms of I guess deep Gamification I feel that this would look at how again find solution can be built to properly support the underlying motivational problem that exists. It includes here providing interesting goal, feedback, progress, at a suitable challenge tailored to the target demographic of the application. And this is really an important thing to consider when you create a Gamification is that you have your users. So when you develop an app to create some kind of software for your users you have a certain demographic for your target. But then when you’re creating Gamification it’s also really useful to think of your users as players. You know people who like different things from different games. And to consider what part of games they like as well. So some people like addictive puzzle games, others like fast moving , first – person shooter games, others like narrative driven games. So it’s incredibly useful to consider who are our users as players and think about what they like in games. And this could be a really good starting point I guess. And then I guess another thing to consider is that you know games aren’t fun because of their achievements that points to levels. These things are really important in terms of providing feedback to the player but generally what makes the game kind of really fun is having some kind of challenge. Some kind of obstacle to overcome. You know whether it’s working at a best strategy to beat another player a game of chess for example. Or whether it’s trying to time a jump just right so Mario can kind of make it across to that platform. So it is kind of challenge and when to how to overcome this challenge and coming up with strategies that’s what really makes games fun.

CHRIS BRIGGS: So that’s very interesting even shallow Gamification really invest users. So I will regale for a story. I remember recently I took a support request for SugarLearning and we have an upset user. And the reason the guy was upset was on the high score board someone was placed above him even thought he had more points. And this guy got really annoyed, he was like, “That leader board means something. It’s my place.” He fired up an email and we had to go patch it of course. So it’s amazing seeing the behaviour by Gamification brings out in people. And I don’t know if that’s always really a positive behaviour we should be encouraging. Other things about we as developers should really be looking out for before we just go and throw Gamification to an app.

ZAC FITZ-WALTER: Yeah, okay. I mean that’s a really interesting finding. So was that a bug that caused that issue or? **

CHRIS BRIGGS:** Yes, it was a small bug with

ZAC FITZ-WALTER: Yeah that’s interesting though because you can clearly see he was quite passionate about being at the top of the leader board. So maybe you know, it still goes to show that these things needs points, badges, leader boards can be quite motivating particularly intro different types of people. There are people who you know still needs a challenge, they want to overcome that challenge. But of course there are some things you need to be careful off when implementing Gamification. You know end point consideration is that when you create a game like experience for people you can attract game like behaviour from your users, which may not be something, which has ever happened or has kind of appeared previously in some of your software. And so all of a sudden you may have users who are really motivated to get to the top or to be the first. And you could also have people who potentially trying to gain the system so that is cheat in order to completely kind of to get to the top to complete the goals of the game. Now we have that in one of our apps before, we made an app which allowed people to check in to various and when they checked into a certain number of events they received badges for doing that. And we had a couple of people admit that yeah, they checked into an events a couple of events that they did not actually attend and they did it just to unlock the badge, which is quite interesting. So, you know it didn’t –

CHRIS BRIGGS: Well yet the application I tried when I met you the QUT one for the orientation. Where I meet you

ZAC FITZ-WALTER: Yeah, that was interesting. That was an orientation. An app that we had made that could be used at university orientations and yeah, that was interesting. So rewarded badges to students for completing some orientation tasks and one of them was attending events. But yeah, it was interesting we had a couple of people – some people are really motivated to complete all the achievements. Last time we also had some people gain their assistance while – which is a really amusing finding for us back then because it wasn’t something – I guess we really considered in the designed process. It was you know, now we consider potential for achieving out in that.

CHRIS BRIGGS: It’s interesting the behaviour of that app encourage me to form. So at the time I didn’t actually had an iPhones. I had a little iPod Touch. An iPod Touch can pull what location down from the WI-FI hotspots but I can’t get it individually. So, QT has this array of different WI-FI hotspots and I have to get to a certain spot we called the kidney lawn.


CHRIS BRIGGS: Any hotspot next to it was this old government house. And the only way to get to the WI-FI hotspot is best to get right into the middle. So I joined this tour. I find out around these old people I am holding up my iPod Touch trying to go on the WI-FI. And I just remembered people just like staring at me going, “What is he doing?”

ZAC FITZ-WALTER: What is he doing?

CHRIS BRIGGS: What’s wrong with you.

ZAC FITZ-WALTER: That’s pretty funny. So I guess this is the limitation of some systems as well. So I mean the recent people couldn’t check into events was that because of the sensors so we’re using GPS at the time to work out where they were and then we were using the time of the event as well. So as long as they’re kind of in the vicinity and it was the time of the event they could check I to the event. But the thing was GPS isn’t that after when you’re inside the building. So we have to increase the radius of where people could check into in order to allow for this kind of inaccuracies GPS, which meant that people could cheat basically if they wanted to. As long as they are kind of in the vicinity of the area. So you know that was interesting because we have to make accommodations with usability because otherwise – I mean if it was unlucky to that it was just WI-FI so you know people holding up their phones. But yeah, we have to make a combination with GPS just because of technology limitations at the time. So maybe we could come up with – maybe scan a few codes or something. So this is another interesting thing to consider as alternatives when you know these problems still exists. I guess another really important thing to consider is well you’re designing Gamification is whether the Gamification goals you created actually align to your business goals as well. So an example of this would say you had some kind of website or forum and on this website or forum you’ve added game elements to encourage participation. So encouraging people to post. You know to post a comment on your website. So you could add Gamification for example to that. It could reward you points every time they post a comment and you can get badges for example. However, is posting a comments the real goal of this? It is quite interesting to kind of dig a little deeper and realise that, “Okay, that’s great. We can reward people for posting comments. But is that the actual business goal that we have? And actual fact I would argue that maybe it’s not just posting comments it’s posting quality comments, right? But because of certain limitations of technology so it’s really easy to pickup, to measure quantitative data. So we can easily determine if someone has visited our website, if they’re using the length of sessions that they have with our websites or applications. And if they’re posting a comment and we can reward game elements for that but what’s really hard is to automatically kind of measure the quality of certain things. And I have seen examples of people just posting random stuff on websites in order to get nonsensical stuff. Post in order to get achievements unlocked. Unlock achievements and get stuff. So you know, that’s another really interesting thing to consider and something to look out for when your adding gamification.

CHRIS BRIGGS: So we’re looking at these negatives, it seems like the first thing any developer should do before adding the points library is actually try and identity the problem they are trying to solve and what behaviour would be the positive ones to encourage.

ZAC FITZ-WALTER: Yeah, I think you have it the nail on the head what it is. I think the really important thing is trying to work out your problem first. So, enough to jump to the conclusion that you need game elements or enough to jump to the conclusion that you need badges, points or leader boards because that’s kind of jumping to the solution without really considering the underlying problem. So, you need to kind of first of all actually determine if there is a motivation problem that exists. Because the reason we add game elements or we look at Gamification I look at adding it to our systems is to actually try to encourage some sort of behaviour change. So I think it’s a bit of a two - step process for identifying kind of the problem. So first required to kind of identify what the actual problem is and what are the goals both in terms of the business goals and the user goals. And once you have identified these you can then determine if Gamification is actually working to address these problem. So first up you know finding the problem. You may have some kind of hunch that a problem exists. Maybe you think that people aren’t engaging enough with the website or maybe they’re not purchasing you know enough for your-commerce website. So you may have a hunch that this problem exists. Maybe talk to a couple of people but you really need to validate that this problem is a problem that is being experienced with your system. So there are a range of validation techniques I can use for capturing data on your website interactions things like that quite easily. Help people for example interact with your website, how long are those sessions are. And again, going through with purchases. You can actually – if you don’t have an office you can get people in and you can actually talk to some of your target users or your target demographic. And people that have used say website for example and you can talk to them and see you know is this a motivation problem that are actually happening. You can set them down, you can get them to interact, you can watch and observe what they do. And of course you can’t bring people into the office, you can always create a questionnaire and send that out. So, the main reasons for doing this kind of things is to really work out on a large scale if a problem actually exists. And one really important thing then to consider is what kind of problem it is. So is it actually a motivation problem or is there another problem there? Is it potentially a usability problem that exists. And it’s quite easy to get fooled into the idea that people aren’t motivated enough to for example purchase things on your website, but until you actually observe people trying to do that, you know there could be something else, which is completely wrong. Maybe they’re missing well at a check out or maybe you know the whole process takes too long so you just kind of lose them three quarters of the way in. So it’s really important to consider whether it’s a, a motivational problem or whether it’s the usability problem that you’re having with whatever system you have setup. And then if it’s a motivational problem it’s important to consider is this a suitable place, which we can apply, again issue to. Probably if the task is a little serious so say for example you’re trying to – someone has stolen your credit cards or your walk and you want to call up and you want to call up and you want to cancel your credit cards. We’d probably wouldn’t gamify a system like that because people would be stressed out. It’s like you know, you issue a badge for getting your card stolen, right? So, you’ve really – you got to consider what the activity is and if it’s going to be suitable to have a game like experience attached to it. So I think that’s really some of the most important things to consider. Is A, it’s a motivational problem to begin with or if it’s actually something else the usability problem. Is it suitable in terms of out of game connection to others.

CHRIS BRIGGS: So because when you’re trying to understand difference between suability and motivation it can be a bit difficult perhaps with my examples. Would you have a few you’d recommend people really going and having a look at to see the difference?

ZAC FITZ-WALTER: Oh, you see mean good examples of Gamification or?


ZAC FITZ-WALTER: Yeah, okay this is an excellent example of Gamification out there. I guess one of my favourites would be Dual Lingo. I don’t know if - have you seen this one before?


ZAC FITZ-WALTER: If you haven’t you should check it out. It’s great. I think that they believe, as a company is that everyone should have the access to education of the highest quality for free and what Dual Lingo provides is that it allows people to learn languages so they can – an app or it’s a website. You can jump on and basically it provides very easy way in which to learn languages. But what’s really nice about it is that gamified the whole experience. And it’s probably one of the best gamified designs I have seen out there. So it’s not – they do have elements such as badges I think? I have to double check. But at least you get things like lingo point some kind of virtual currency. So they do have these things that we’ve seen in Gamification designs. Now this a blueprint of Gamification. But what I really like about dual lingo is the way, which that set it out. So, it’s very much a journey though the language they get learning. And you can kind of at some point choose what you’d like to tackle next. But then the actual language learning activities are quite fun. They’re almost game- like. So you know somebody has to speak in to the actual microphone. Somebody have to select, it’s multiple choice, some you have to write. They are actually challenging, they’re interesting they’re quite fun. And what’s really nice about it starts off easy and then it gets harder and harder as you go. So I think in terms of you know in terms of game design principles and processes I think these guys the people at dual lingo have done an excellent job when it comes to the design of it. Another one of my favourites is Zombies Run. Have you heard of the Zombies Run before?

CHRIS BRIGGS: Oh, yes I tried to the 5K run but the zombies -

ZAC FITZ-WALTER: Oh, did you?

CHRIS BRIGGS: They keep beating me.

ZAC FITZ-WALTER: So Zombies run is great. It’s another excellent example of you know something which is much more game like and quite challenging. So you know there are many fitness apps out there which will rewards you the points, badges and leader boards. I mean if you could compare how many steps you’ve done during the day with your other friends but that had kind of gets a little bit boring after a while but Zombies Run is different. It’s very much a narrative driven game. So you start running, you put on your headphones and kind of this narrative unfold as you run that kind of set this post apocalyptic world full of zombies. But yeah, as you said if you turn it on you can get chased by zombies as you’re running which is hilarious and terrifying at the same time. So yeah, the zombies breathing down your neck and you actually have to – I could get used to this location or GPS sensing or something. It can determine when you’re running faster so you have to run faster at that point in order to outrun the zombies otherwise they get on the stock, so. Which is good.

CHRIS BRIGGS: Well the last time I tried it the zombies are breathing down my neck and somebody reached out and grab my shoulder…

ZAC FITZ-WALTER: Oh, really?

CHRIS BRIGGS:…I was “Ahh.”

ZAC FITZ-WALTER: That’s terrifying.

CHRIS BRIGGS: Oh, it is. You don’t think it would freak you out so much but you get so invested.

ZAC FITZ-WALTER: Yeah, for sure. It’s interesting so I think these ones are really well designed Gamification designs and I think they must have had definitely it helps to have a game designer on board or someone who has experienced helping you craft a solution, which fits the problem that you actually have. And it helps to look at as if making kind of what makes games so engaging rather than just kind of jump into it for points, badges, and leader boards. And I am also excited about – did you hear about the Pokémon Go?

CHRIS BRIGGS: I am trying to get my hopes up. I am trying but I am very, very excited.

ZAC FITZ-WALTER: Ah, yes oh, you know we will have to see more of what it’s like. But I guess what’s interesting is on the flip side. So you know you can have these kind of – this is where it starts to border between game and Gamification and it will be interesting. I think a few years from now maybe the word Gamification won’t exist.

CHRIS BRIGGS: Okay, Zac, just for the people at home watching this interview, you might not be Pokemaniacs like ourselves.


CHRIS BRIGGS: Please explain what Pokémon Go is. Its going got be from Nintendo

ZAC FITZ-WALTER: Yeah, so that’s kind of going to be interesting as well. I guess Pokémon it’s a kind of like an RPG game. It is quite unique it came out in the 90’s on Gameboy. The whole idea is you go around you have these little creatures, you catch them and you use them to battle other creatures and other trainers so you’re called the trainer in the game. And there have been – it’s been a hugely successful franchise and being incredibly popular. And now we’re starting to see or we just you know as last week or a week and a half ago we saw the release of a new type of Pokémon game coming out and this is one, which is going to be situated in the real world. So, instead of playing it just on the Gameboy this is one where you actually have to – I am guessing go around to different places to find Pokémon and capture them in the real world, which is going to be quite interesting. Now what’s interesting about this is this is primarily a game. It’s not a Gamification site. What’s I guess known as a pervasive game. Yet it’s still if we’re looking at you know the ability to encourage exercise its possibly going to be a great and super engaging example of something which can encourage us to undertake more physical activity even though it is more likely just a game. So yeah, I guess I am excited for Pokémon Go. If it gets people out and about moving, it’s going to be great and it’s going to be really interesting to see what kind of experience they create.

CHRIS BRIGGS: It’s going to be really interesting. So when that comes out I am coming down to QET just to challenge you.

ZAC FITZ-WALTER: Sounds good.


ZAC FITZ-WALTER: Excellent. I’ll look forward to it.

CHRIS BRIGGS: So if people would like to keep in touch like Pokémon battle you, where they can find you?

ZAC FITZ-WALTER: So you head to You can sign up for a newsletter there where I send out periodical updates on Gamification, the latest news, interesting facts, research that’s been done in the area and fundings, comics etcetera. So yeah, you can jump on to that and there’s also a new website, which I’ll be announcing soon through that newsletter which is going to provide basically a hub of information about Gamification. And provide a number of ways in which you can get started with Gamification. So yeah, if you sign up to the newsletter for then you’ll be able to find out more information about that.

CHRIS BRIGGS: Excellent. So on twitter you are?

ZAC FITZ-WALTER: Uh, Zefcan, Z-E-F-C-A-N. If you got to you’ll be able to find a link to my twitter and to the facebook web page as well. It’s probably easier to remember than my twitter add which is something that I needed to update.

CHRIS BRIGGS: Thank you for being on the SSW TV today.

ZAC FITZ-WALTER: Thank you; it’s a lot of fun.

CHRIS BRIGGS: Do you want more great content? Then hit subscribe. Do you have a comment to Zac? Leave it below and definitely like this video. Many thanks.